Wednesday, January 20, 2010

עומד לשרפה 2 aka the onion post

לכבוד ידידי הגר"ח הרה"ג כראלינג עקס שליט"א:

בענין שאילתך לגבי הברכה על בצלים יש כמה צדדים ברכת בצלים חיים דנקרא "רא" בעכו"ם היא שהכל משום דלאו דרך לאכול כמו דאיתא בברכות שילהי דפרק כיצד מברכים ובקצה"ח שם אבל מאידך גיסא יש לטעון דזה הוי מנהג יוצאי רוסיא יוקרע"ן וקצת פולין דרך אכילה דידיה הוה וליברך האדמה אגב אורכא מצד יוחסין יש לי מדור רביעי לומר מנהג דידן אבל אין לדקדק בזה כדידיענא מכ"ק מסאקמער שאין גורסין "שפיץ יחוס" אלא לסוסים וכלבים (ויש מוסיפין שידוכים וד"ל) וא"ת דאין לברך את האדמה משום חוקת הגוי של עובדי כוכבים שעובדים עפר הארץ דמתקרי למיניהם טרי האגערז וכדומה אין לחוש לזה דאין מברכין את האדמה ממש אלא ברכת הנהנין באיאמה"ע בורא פרי האדמה דיש לנו לזה מסורת אבותינו אבל יש לבא לההוא מסקנא דאין מברכין מזונות מטעם אחר דבתר רובא אזלינן ואין לתמוך על מנהג שאין מנהג המקום וכידוע בכל עולם הישיבות דאין שייך מה"מ כלל באמעריקא דכולנו מבולבלים כמו טשלענט ואין שום קהילה חזקה דיש לה מקום ומנהג ולאו גורסין מציאות דמכשיש כלל דפתיחת העניים מביא לידי כפירה דמביא לידי כאלעדז דמביא לידי זנות דמביא לידי ב"צ רחמנא לצלן! ולענ"ד הדבר תלוי בסביבה כדי שרוסי שאוכל בינו ובין עצמו (כמו שרגיל באוכלי בצלים) יברך האדמה ובורא נפשות ומי שרואה אותו יברך משנה הבריות אבל אם הוא אוכל עם חברים שאינם נוהגים כן יברך שהכל ויש כמה ראיות לדבר.

בברכת כל טוב והצלחה רבה

דער הלבע כופר


The above was a cleverly written satire or a load of borderline sacrilegious crap depending how you look at it. The only part that was meant to be taken seriously in any way was the very last sentence after the exclamation point. Even so, I want to do some real research and ask my rabbi. I would say continue making shehakol until then.

48 comments:

The Real Shliach said...

Real research is too difficult...

e said...

1. It looked like it came from a real sefer because there was almost no punctuation.

2. The beracha depends on who's sitting with you? From whence you got this idea?

Crawling Axe said...

Amusing.

e, also because it was one long sentence.

MBM, you’re ignoring the fact that I am a Lubavitcher. Which means two things: a) I am following Alter Rebbe’s shitta regarding brochos, b) I don’t care about other Jews’ halachic observance patterns or minhogim.

What do you mean "continue" making shehakol? I have never said shehakol on the onion before.

The Real Shliach said...

They aren't even of academic interest? Personally, I love learning the Alter Rebbe and finding out why he paskens the way he does, showing that other people's practices are bogus.

Crawling Axe said...

In practice we don’t care. Although, the last time I did glila, I accepted the talles.

The Real Shliach said...

What? Heresy!

Crawling Axe said...

I didn’t say the brocha and kept my fingers crossed the whole time.

The Real Shliach said...

A. Brocha on glila?

B. How did you glila with your finger's crossed?

Crawling Axe said...

1. Brocha on putting on talles. Or are you not supposed to anyway (if it’s only for a moment)? When people of MO orientation who are not wearing talles accept talles, they look like they are making a brocha. Maybe they just want to look cool.

2. Actually, I crossed my toes. Sometimes I call my toes "fingers", because in Russian they are called "fingers on the feet" (пальцы на ногах).

Crawling Axe said...

Actually, if you google-translate “пальцы на ногах”, you get “toes”. But if you translate each word individually, you get “fingers”, “on” and “feet”. Cool, huh? Languages are like magic.

The Real Shliach said...

You only make a brocha if you put it over your head. I wore talleism numerous times before my wedding, but I never made a brocha (besides, if you're wearing a hat...)

Ouch.

Crawling Axe said...

Oh. Can’t wait until I can do that myself.

The Real Shliach said...

:)

Crawling Axe said...

Wait, so should you put the talles on your head if you accept it for aliyah/glila? Is it preferable? Why do people say the brocha then?

The Real Shliach said...

You should not. Bichlal, the whole thing is complicated, whether it's your tallis or not, etc, so it's best not to bring yourself into the situation in the first place.

Why do they make brochos? Perhaps they don't know better.

Crawling Axe said...

That’s why I alienated everyone in the local shull to the point that I don’t get offered aliyahs or glilas. Except that one time when there was a new gabbai who offered me an aliyah by mistake (did I already tell you that?).

They look like they are making a brocha. They cover their head with talles and stand quietly for the amount of time necessary to recite the names of all twelve cranial nerves.

The Real Shliach said...

I was once by a shliach who davened by some modernishe people, and they wanted to give me an aliyah, but he said they could only give it to me if they didn't make me a tallis, so they got into a whole fight, and at the end I didn't get one. Meanwhile, the whole time I pretended that I wasn't hearing anything.

Perhaps they are making a brocha. Or maybe they're reciting the names of all twelve cranial nerves. Who knows?

Crawling Axe said...

My rabbi is much more liberal. He doesn’t like conflicts. Unlike the first Lubavitcher who was sent to Boston area by the Rebbe. (Did I tell you that story already?)

The Real Shliach said...

Please. Expound.

Crawling Axe said...

I forgot his name. Anyway, he was sent to Boston barely speaking any English. He would daven at the Bostoner Rebbe’s shull. One time the Bostoner Rebbe offered him to be a chazzan. So, he went up and davened nusach Arizal.

There was a Harvard professor would davened in that shull as well. That day he was a little late. He came in and couldn’t believe what was happening.

Anyway, after the davening, while the Lubavitcher guy was taking off Rabbeinu Tam, the professor came to him and said: “You are a very arrogant human being!” The chossid obviously didn’t understand him, since he barely spoke English. So, he asked him: “Vos redstu?” The professor repeated. The chossid asked again. It went on like this until the chossid finally understood what the professor wanted. He looked him in the eyes and said: “Kishen tuches.”

The Real Shliach said...

That is a chassid!

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

You only make a brocha when it is either yours or being put over your head. For the alter rebbes opinion look in hilchos tfilla where he discusses the brocha on the shliach tzibburs talis for pre-dawn slichos. (Haevai it would be noheg in lubavitch today)

The tshuva was a parody, I know you don't care.

Crawling Axe said...

The one who davens nusach Arizal in the face of adversity or the one who says “kishen tuches” to a misnaged?

The Real Shliach said...

Modeh: Yup.

CA: A. It discusses this in Sefer Minhagim, and there it says you should daven nusach ari for the amud even if you're in a non-nusach ari synagogue.

B. Certainly.

Crawling Axe said...

MBM, if you know the real answer I would like to hear. The real issue is that from what I know, Alter Rebbe doesn’t care about whether food is normally eaten raw or cooked. He says if cooking destroys the food’s taste (as in the case of boiled onions), we say shehakol. If it doesn’t (as in the case of fried onions), we say ha’adama/ha’etz. I may be wrong about this. Also, this is regarding cooked foods, not raw. But if Alter Rebbe doesn’t care about frequency of the food being eaten raw in the case of cooking (like other poskim)...

Anyway, what should an American non-Lubavitcher do? Is eating onions raw in the salad and with hamburgers not enough to warrant saying ha’adama on them when eaten raw?

Crawling Axe said...

TRS: does it talk about accepting the talles? My rabbi told me to accept it (after I hadn’t), but again, he doesn’t like to make trouble.

The Real Shliach said...

I've never read anything about the tallis. In fact, I heard that once in 770 (in the very early days) the Rebbe told someone to put on a tallis, but I'd have to verify this story with my Rabbi before putting it out as the gospel truth.

e said...

What do you mean "continue" making shehakol? I have never said shehakol on the onion before.

Veiter "the" onion?

e said...

I did not read the entire exchange, but this one line jumped out at me: "CA: A. It discusses this in Sefer Minhagim, and there it says you should daven nusach ari for the amud even if you're in a non-nusach ari synagogue."

Sefer Haminhagim actually says that an individual praying together with a non-nusach-ari congregation prays according to nusach ari.
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/sefer-haminhagim/04.htm#n16

The Real Shliach said...

Look at footnote 16 wiseguy-oh wait, you did, and you didn't even pay attention to what it said!

"The question arises as to whether a worshiper in this situation may lead the prayers as a sheliach tzibbur while following his own accustomed rite and not that of the congregation. In such cases, the law is determined by actual precedent (maaseh rav). Thus R. Nasan Adler (and so too [R. Pinchas Horowitz,] the author of Sefer Haflaah), himself following the Sephard rite, led his congregation who followed the Ashkenaz rite. (From the responsa of the Chasam Sofer, Orach Chayim 16.) There is no need here to elaborate further on this subject."

Crawling Axe said...

Whenever I read that, I always feel like a little child who had candy taken away.

The Real Shliach said...

Why?

Crawling Axe said...

Why do I feel cheated whenever I read “There is no need here to elaborate further on this subject”? Because obviously there is something juicy to say on the subject, but the author is not saying it for PR (or PC) purposes, and one can probably get him to say it by getting him drunk at a farbrengen.

The Real Shliach said...

Why? It's great-now you can interpret this however you want!

Crawling Axe said...

Again, you confuse me with a member of Humanities. In sciences we don’t interpret things however we want. And before MBM comes here and says that this is indeed all that scientists do, I hurry to add: not exactly.

The Real Shliach said...

You may not be a member of the humanities, but what about the subject we're dealing with here?

Crawling Axe said...

Are you saying that in Judaism we interpret things however we want?

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

TRS thinks that Judaism is a religion and therefore subject to Humanities rules. It isn't. BTW R' Nosson Adler's most famous talmid was a snag and since you are "hai gavra rabba chasida" as I put in the salutation, you can continue to be poretz geder in this matter against all halachic authorities to your heart's content.

Re taste: In this case taste is not the issue. The issue is whether or not raw onions are "derech achila" therefore the "real answer" as you put it would be everything after the exclamation point -- especially the meshane habrios part :). However, in light of new research (i.e. I looked at the bach again) you should probably just say ha'adama on a raw onion period.

RE Minhagim: The argumetn of whether or not there is minhag hamakom in America is always a fun one and always ends with the famous story of the chasam sofer's first shtelle.

Crawling Axe said...

Re: Humanities. If Judaism was a discipline taught in a University (not the fake stuff that’s taught, but real, authentic, traditional Yiddishkeit), what area would you assign it to?

Re: taste. But Alter Rebbe seems to ignore derech achila in his shitta. Thanks for Bach.

Re: minhogim. What’s the story?

The Real Shliach said...

CA: Sometimes.

Modeh: Thanks.

e said...

I'm not sure if I stand corrected.

The Real Shliach said...

Explain.

e said...

Is there a hebrew sefer haminhagim online?

The Real Shliach said...

Search and there's a chance that ye shall find.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

The story will be in a new post. Telling it right requires some room.

FOr the alter rebbe's shitta on derech achila you should go open a gemara brachos. In the 6th perek you will find a gemara talking about "hakoses es ha-orez" check the ner mitzvah for the citation in shulchan aruch and see shulchan aruch harav there.

Crawling Axe said...

I shall await for it with utmost eagerness.

I shall do so at the first convenient occasion. You have my thanks.

Modeh B'Mitksas said...

I don't know what you'll find though.

English Grammar tip: It's either "wait for it" or "await it" putting both is redundant.

Crawling Axe said...

What I will find in the story or in the sources provided?

I athank you for the tip.